Ultimate hangun debate

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  • Ultimate hangun debate

    personally I am very interested in this discussion but I await the verdict of the forum.

    Handguns: On 19 December 2013 there was a brief discussion regarding the ultimate pistol, I believe the price mentioned was around A $1100, possibly th eprice is not the determining factor, if that is the case, why is America using the Beretta? From what I recall STI, H&K & CZ were mentioned, there are obviously others. I believe this discussion has merit. Single stack with 10 rounds may not be that great.

    This argument or discussion in my opinion comes back to which is better, Holden or Ford. There appear to be some in both camps who cannot and will not concede any point. However can we reach a consensus or do we remain miles apart. Are there telling or critical aspects of one firearm as opposed to another that makes it stand apart?

    If there is why are they not being issued to all service personnel in ALL countries? It cannot be a cost factor, for all in the field only the best MUST be. Alas, there is always a compromise.

    We are discussing military issue, issues that address possibly the reliability factor first and foremost.
    I am assuming that accuracy then comes next, then cost or other unknowns. A production pistol is just that, PRODUCTION, use what you get. Some years ago I had a Colt 1911 Army issued from the mid fifties. This pistol with very little modification was extremely accurate up to 50 meters, yet I have seen other that at 10 meters could not, and would not put 2 rounds into the same general location.

    There are service personal all over the world who swear by their countries choice, what they are issued are obviously the best and all other countries have inferior handguns.

    Italy; the Beretta 92/96 & 8000 series, no surprise there, its there own, 9mm & .40 S&W.
    Germany; Heckler & Kock USP; Mk23-0 9mm & .40 S&W & .45, Note, again their own, as well as the SIG-Sauer P226/P228/P229 9mm, .45ACP and strange, .38 super & .357 Also Walther various models.
    Spain; Llama 9mm & .45, their own.
    Switzerland; SIG P210-6 9mm their own.
    Russia; The good old Tokerav & Makarov in 9mm.
    China; as above but using a 94 grain roundnose.
    Canada; I assume use their Para, in various cal.
    Israel; I assume use their Bul M5.
    Belgium; Use the Browning high power in 9mm.
    Austria; I assume use their Glock.
    Czech Republic as it was then known the CZ various models in 9mm & .40S&W

    Not a great deal from the American manufacturers like S &W, Springfield Armory, Ruger & Colt; yet all 4 are extremely good manufacturers and make some very good production pistols, was price the determining factor. Was Beretta chosen by the US government over a local company for a few dollars less? Now soldiers speak about modifications, who pays, why not modify the lot, for a few dollars more?

    It appears that countries tend to use their own locally manufactured pistols. Almost as though their conditions and or situations are unique to that location, yet most conflicts are usually not on their own soil? I am certain that when Beretta produced their 92F series which the US military adopted the location of Iraq/Afghanistan was the furthest from the climatic conditions the Italians considered.

    If it comes down to one, reliability, low recoil, gas operated stopping power and accuracy I would stay with the Desert eagle in .357. Yes a little heavier, yes a 6”. But priced to high hence my choice of CZ, the family is large, most are 16 round magazines and solid.

    Hence, what is it about your choice that you fell makes your selection superior? Strange that yesterday no mention was made of Glock or M&P.

  • #2
    I understand the USMC are reverting to the Colt GM ?
    If guns cause crime, then all mine are faulty - Ted Nugent

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    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest commented
      Editing a comment
      What is the question are you asking what we think is the best handgun for military use or why various militaries chose what they do?

  • #3
    ****************



    ****************

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    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest commented
      Editing a comment
      Originally posted by Maverick" post=45093
      ****************

      :

      ****************
      Thank you, I do like your post the most, confirms what I already thought,

  • #4
    Originally posted by susanwest" post=45075
    personally I am very interested in this discussion but I await the verdict of the forum.

    Handguns: On 19 December 2013 there was a brief discussion regarding the ultimate pistol, I believe the price mentioned was around A $1100, possibly th eprice is not the determining factor, if that is the case, why is America using the Beretta? From what I recall STI, H&K & CZ were mentioned, there are obviously others. I believe this discussion has merit. Single stack with 10 rounds may not be that great.

    This argument or discussion in my opinion comes back to which is better, Holden or Ford. There appear to be some in both camps who cannot and will not concede any point. However can we reach a consensus or do we remain miles apart. Are there telling or critical aspects of one firearm as opposed to another that makes it stand apart?

    If there is why are they not being issued to all service personnel in ALL countries? It cannot be a cost factor, for all in the field only the best MUST be. Alas, there is always a compromise.

    We are discussing military issue, issues that address possibly the reliability factor first and foremost.
    I am assuming that accuracy then comes next, then cost or other unknowns. A production pistol is just that, PRODUCTION, use what you get. Some years ago I had a Colt 1911 Army issued from the mid fifties. This pistol with very little modification was extremely accurate up to 50 meters, yet I have seen other that at 10 meters could not, and would not put 2 rounds into the same general location.

    There are service personal all over the world who swear by their countries choice, what they are issued are obviously the best and all other countries have inferior handguns.

    Italy; the Beretta 92/96 & 8000 series, no surprise there, its there own, 9mm & .40 S&W.
    Germany; Heckler & Kock USP; Mk23-0 9mm & .40 S&W & .45, Note, again their own, as well as the SIG-Sauer P226/P228/P229 9mm, .45ACP and strange, .38 super & .357 Also Walther various models.
    Spain; Llama 9mm & .45, their own.
    Switzerland; SIG P210-6 9mm their own.
    Russia; The good old Tokerav & Makarov in 9mm.
    China; as above but using a 94 grain roundnose.
    Canada; I assume use their Para, in various cal.
    Israel; I assume use their Bul M5.
    Belgium; Use the Browning high power in 9mm.
    Austria; I assume use their Glock.
    Czech Republic as it was then known the CZ various models in 9mm & .40S&W

    Not a great deal from the American manufacturers like S &W, Springfield Armory, Ruger & Colt; yet all 4 are extremely good manufacturers and make some very good production pistols, was price the determining factor. Was Beretta chosen by the US government over a local company for a few dollars less? Now soldiers speak about modifications, who pays, why not modify the lot, for a few dollars more?

    It appears that countries tend to use their own locally manufactured pistols. Almost as though their conditions and or situations are unique to that location, yet most conflicts are usually not on their own soil? I am certain that when Beretta produced their 92F series which the US military adopted the location of Iraq/Afghanistan was the furthest from the climatic conditions the Italians considered.

    If it comes down to one, reliability, low recoil, gas operated stopping power and accuracy I would stay with the Desert eagle in .357. Yes a little heavier, yes a 6”. But priced to high hence my choice of CZ, the family is large, most are 16 round magazines and solid.

    Hence, what is it about your choice that you fell makes your selection superior? Strange that yesterday no mention was made of Glock or M&P.
    General issue, Special Forces, or Aircrew?

    There are many many roles for a military handgun, so what purpose do you intend?

    The ADF have an inventory of about 25 plus handguns for different purposes......

    Comment


    • Goodacre
      Goodacre commented
      Editing a comment
      If I knew that at a future date I would have to defend myself with a sidearm against an armed attacker, (as a police officer or in the armed forces) and had my pick of sidearms I'd like a single action in .357sig. Sig makes a 1911 in .357, with a 9+1 mag. RRP is $1200ish.

      But then I'm not a military man, nor a handgun shooter. so I don't know squat.

  • #5
    The thread yesterday was bout about the op buying a beretta 92a1, not what is the best handgun. Granted that thread my have derailed slightly.
    A military takes a lot of other factors into account when selecting a handgun and just because military x chooses brand y does not make brand y the best.
    Price is a factor, the Swiss don't use the p49 any more but the p220 because the p49 I.e p210's were too costly.

    If I had my choice it would be a glock 17. Glock are far from my favourite handgun but IMO they are ideal for combat.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

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    • Mike
      Mike commented
      Editing a comment

    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest commented
      Editing a comment
      Originally posted by Morgo" post=45109
      The thread yesterday was bout about the op buying a beretta 92a1, not what is the best handgun. Granted that thread my have derailed slightly.
      A military takes a lot of other factors into account when selecting a handgun and just because military x chooses brand y does not make brand y the best.
      Price is a factor, the Swiss don't use the p49 any more but the p220 because the p49 I.e p210's were too costly.

      If I had my choice it would be a glock 17. Glock are far from my favourite handgun but IMO they are ideal for combat.

      Yeah you want something which is simple to maintain and runs pretty much no matter what - Glock delivers on that.

      Coincidentally, the Russians have switched over to the MP-443 Grach/Yarygin PYa which in comparative testing came up against a few problems running against a Glock.

    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest commented
      Editing a comment
      Originally posted by Morgo" post=45109
      If I had my choice it would be a glock 17. Glock are far from my favourite handgun but IMO they are ideal for combat.
      Glocks my friend are simply chosen on price and it is as simple as that, there is nothing a glock can do that a H&K or SIG can't do better

  • #6
    Essentially I agree with Morgo, however, I would have a selection of models calibres and sizes of Glocks.

    This would make training burden minimal.

    I will elaborate further when I have time.

    Discuss away.....

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    • #7
      Don't the British SAS and other tier 1 professionals use Sig Sauer and HK

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      • Guest's Avatar
        Guest commented
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        Their choice.

    • #8
      Meh, I don't put much credibility in youtube videos. I skipped and watched 30 seconds but...

      Break Glock, a little water does not
      “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

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      • Guest's Avatar
        Guest commented
        Editing a comment
        Originally posted by Morgo" post=45296
        Meh, I don't put much credibility in youtube videos. I skipped and watched 30 seconds but...

        Break Glock, a little water does not
        Why because it doesn't suit your arguement, I only posted that particular vid to highlight that glocks do fail and when water is involved often. If you care to watch the whole series of the tests these guys do which is what could happen to a combat side arm the glock performs the worst.

    • #9
      If we're talking service handguns, we're talking about ball ammo.

      I'd much rather have a .45 in my hand to use in anger than a 9mm.

      I've heard a few stories of those higher cap 9mm mags being put to good use by blokes who go into harms way.

      A lot of spec op blokes in the US have been going back to the .45's before the Marines decided to have a look at 1911's again.

      In the majority of cases if a soldier is using a handgun as an offensive weapon than something has gone horribly wrong.

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      • Guest's Avatar
        Guest commented
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        Originally posted by Dino67" post=45338
        If we're talking service handguns, we're talking about ball ammo.

        I'd much rather have a .45 in my hand to use in anger than a 9mm.

        I've heard a few stories of those higher cap 9mm mags being put to good use by blokes who go into harms way.

        A lot of spec op blokes in the US have been going back to the .45's before the Marines decided to have a look at 1911's again.

        In the majority of cases if a soldier is using a handgun as an offensive weapon than something has gone horribly wrong.
        OK again I agree, so would I, however a world wide shooting sport called IPSC was developed, it has a history, it is also shot worldwide by many countries and has many followers, I know in the late 90ties and early 2000 some squads of shooters may have been military, especially at the nationals held in Perth, possibly, maybe, I wonder why. Again my post is regarding GENERAL ISSUE to the masses, they don't in the US get to chose, here's your Beretta, end of story.

    • #10
      Well the Glock seemed to work quite well firing off the whole mag in the youtube video I posted.
      WWB is common because its cheap and sold at Walmart, doesn't meant its good.

      I get you don't like Glock, how about offering up a "better" handgun and explain why its "better"?

      For the record I don't much care for Glocks but I recognize they serve one purpose quite well.
      “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

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      • #11
        If I was picking a firearm based on price (price is always an issue), functionality, reliability, ease of use, hassle free maintenance and combat accurate then you can't beat a glock.

        Comment


        • #12
          Plebs.

          From wiki:

          "In British, Irish, Australian, New Zealand and South African English the back-formation pleb, along with the more recently derived adjectival form plebby,[5] is used as a derogatory term for someone considered unsophisticated or uncultured.[6]"

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          • #13
            I also think various Glock models would be the most practical.

            Do many armed forces still allow people to carry their own sidearm of choice? I think that would be a good idea, because pistols are not a one size fits all type of thing. For example people with small girly hands may not like double stack, while others prefer them.

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            • #14
              I just read American sniper and the guy who was a seal and by all accounts a very brave man used to carry a Springfield TRP 45 before that a Sig 226 a sig 229 but no Glock

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                .45 1911's are popular in combat for very good reason
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