Webley Raider 10 Workshop

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  • Webley Raider 10 Workshop

    The Webley Raider 10


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    The Webley Raider 10 is a very basic but good value 10 shot PCP - It is a tried and trusted British design now manufactured under licence by European Air Gun Giant Hatsan - It is an accurate and well made rifle which lends itself well to tuning and the familiarisation of all things PCP.

    The rifle is of a compact `Carbine` nature and is famous for it`s incredibly reliable 10 shot reloading mechanism.

    In it`s original `Export Spec` the Raider is delivered to Australia as an FAC* Air Rifle (A UK Acronym for Fire Arm Certificate) This means that the manufacturer has put the biggest practical air port into it that they possibly could supposedly to satisfy the overseas market.
    However as many experienced Air Gunners learn over time Power is NOTHING without Accuracy and the valuable advantage of inherent stealth should always be preserved whenever possible to give us the edge we need over our powder-burning counterparts.

    Therefore I personally recommend `De-tuning` the Raider down to a more appropriate power level to get the best possible results out of it .
    These benefits include:
    1, Improved accuracy
    2, A higher shot count
    3, A far quieter muzzle report

    There are several ways to achieve this including - Reducing the pre-load on the hammer spring - Fitting a smaller air port - (available from Matt on this forum for not very much $`s ) and finally installing an after-market pressure-regulator (more info on that later in this thread) or ultimately a combination of all three methods

    Listed below is a summary of the procedures involved if you do choose to carry out any of these extremely worthwhile modifications.

    Disclaimer: Please note that any modifications should be carried out by a competent individual (such as a registered gunsmith) and will invalidate any manufacturers warranty that you may have.

    1, Put a clean drop-sheet down to work on so any bits don`t fly off while you`re working on the rifle

    2, Check the rifles not loaded and take off the optics

    3, Remove the stock (Bottom right screw and spacer)

    4, Remove Thread Protector and Barrel Band - It will be tight on the band so get it reamed out while you`ve got it off - Worth doing too as `floating` the barrel will also help to improve the guns accuracy.

    5, Cock rifle and lock bolt in the rear bolt-park to gain access to the front action block mounting screw at the bottom of the mag-well - Remove the small mag-well screw

    6, De-cock the rifle into the forward position (but don`t park it) - This means the rest of the strip-down can be performed with the bolt forward, hammer spring tension at minimum and leaves you free to wiggle things about a bit while you tinker (even more relevant on the rebuild).

    BTW If you did`nt already know `De-Cocking` means holding back the bolt FIRMLY and then pulling the trigger - At the point of trigger release you SLOWLY ease the bolt forward until it stops.

    7, Drift out the 2 trigger retaining pins (knock them out backwards from the pointed ends) and wiggle out the trigger unit.

    8, To make things easier put a zip-tie round the action and cylinder to hold things together while you do the next bits

    9, Remove the cylinder end-plug screw (bottom left) whilst keeping forward pressure on the cylinder end-plug. Once you have this screw out undo and remove the small rear action screw aswell (top left) gently release the pressure on the end plug - Remove the cylinder end plug and withdraw hammer spring.

    10, Whilst squeezing the action together - Carefully cut the zip tie and Unroll / Lift Off the barrelled action - As you do this the transfer port, port orings, probe catch and probe catch spring will all be loose and all drop out on to your drop-sheet (you did put a drop-sheet down did`nt you?!)

    Now you should have a pile of bits that looks something like this (Notice that this picture shows both the FAC and 12FPE Air Ports)


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    That`s about it really - You simply change the Air-Port for the reduced one and rebuild it all in reverse order.- The hardest part of the rebuild is lining everything up in the action carefully (That wish-bone / probe-catch thing can be a right fiddly bugger) and making sure the bolt-probe and hammer-assembly all line up properly - Just wiggle things about and curse a bit and you`ll be right.

    The aforementioned modifications should give you the following performance differences

    Massively increase shot count - From around 30 in OE spec to up-to and over 70 usable shots per air charge depending on the tune.

    A noticeable reduction in muzzle report - From Sounds like a rimmie on `Quiet` CCI`s (ie Bloody Loud ) too well under 86 decibels 1m away from the muzzle

    Reduced power output From the original FAC spec of around 20FPE to a `Not Specially Dangerous` (unless of course you happen to be a rabbit presenting a clear head-shot at less than 50yds) of 12 FPE.

    and best of all...

    Vastly improved accuracy - If you down-tune to 12FPE strongly recommend using H&N Field Target Trophy as they are phenomenally accurate at these NSD power-levels (For the out-of-the-box FAC/Export version I recommend a heavier pellet such as JSB Exact Heavy or H&N Barracuda Hunter).

    Good luck and shoot safe.

    Druid 66
    "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

  • #2
    Hey Druid,

    How Much did your raider cost you and where did you get it from?

    My Mrs is looking at getting her license and we're scouting guns for her, the Raider looks like it may be an good option. All she wants it for is targets at the SSAA range. Those 50 Usable shots, that'd be for targets rights?

    Comment


    • Druid 66
      Druid66 commented
      Editing a comment
      The rifle cost me $690 back in May of this year from Noosa Shooting Supplies and it came with a good quality Hand Pump which was FREE at the time - A very good deal indeed IMHO.

      Those 50 shots I`m talking about average out at around 12FPE so would be okay for small game hunting and vermin control out to about 50yds - I get those shots on the top of it`s power curve between 125BAR and 75BAR peaking at around 90BAR.

      BTW If you pump her up to the max (200BAR) and run her down to the minimum (75BAR) she`ll actually return well over twice that many shots for paper punching - Just bear in mind that the Velocity Curve will be `somewhat pronounced` if you choose to go down that path.

  • #3
    Webley Raider 10 Left Hand Conversion?



    Yes We Can

    And just with a little guidance and a couple of cups of coffee my local gunsmith did these 3 pertinent mods for only $100

    1, As above - Mill a new bolt-slot in the left-hand side of the action
    2, Drill a new bolt-hole and tap a new thread in the slider
    3, Mill out the cocking recess in the slider as required to line up with the bolt mechanism.

    "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

    Comment


    • #4
      Well I`ve started on a new stock for the Webley now lads so if you`re interested in a bit of Expert Woodworking Skills...don`t look here :P

      http://shootingaustralia.net/forum/stock-chassis-building/2154-homemade-stock-for-webley-raider-10
      "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

      Comment


      • #5
        The finished article.

        "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

        Comment


        • mattw975
          mattw975 commented
          Editing a comment
          Nice job Druid

      • #6
        Very nice work.

        I've had a couple of stocks on the drawing board for ages. The difference is you've done yours while I'm still just talking about it.

        I have to admit actually doing it does give a much better result. :lol:

        Comment


        • #7
          I took the scope off my raider today to use it on another rifle while I wait for one I ordered to show in the post.

          I was looking at the raider and I realised I really like the lines of the rifle without a scope, the weight and balance are also great,
          Soooo, is there some way I could put some open sights on it to try out??

          I know there are dovetail mounted peep sights but I will need a fore sight as well.

          Thanks for any help you can give me

          Chewy.

          Comment


          • mattw975
            mattw975 commented
            Editing a comment
            What diameter barrel is it Chewy ?

            I've just done exactly the same on my Diana 52. I made a foresight with a Delrin muzzle weight & a brass pin sight in front (I'm also making a fibre optic one from an old foresight I had).



            Originally posted by Chewdog" post=62728
            I took the scope off my raider today to use it on another rifle while I wait for one I ordered to show in the post.

            I was looking at the raider and I realised I really like the lines of the rifle without a scope, the weight and balance are also great,
            Soooo, is there some way I could put some open sights on it to try out??

            I know there are dovetail mounted peep sights but I will need a fore sight as well.

            Thanks for any help you can give me

            Chewy.

        • #8
          It is 16mm barrel Matt,

          I have modified the rear sight off the AT 44 to fit the action of the raider, and I have this part of a damaged fore sight of a AT44 as well, could this work with your delrin muzzle weight???

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          Still like the look of those classy Williams sights, would a brass pin foresight work with a Williams blade or peep sight, you reckon???

          Chewy.

          Comment


          • mattw975
            mattw975 commented
            Editing a comment
            Chewy,

            It could work with the Tru Glo, but what I have found tricky with my 52 is getting the height of the foresight right to tie in with the rear sight.

            The best way I've found is to make the Delrin muzzle weight drilled to accept a simple brass foresight pin.

            I started with an extra long pin & cut it down gradually until the elevation was about right. Then & only then glue in the pin.




            Originally posted by Chewdog" post=62810
            It is 16mm barrel Matt,

            I have modified the rear sight off the AT 44 to fit the action of the raider, and I have this part of a damaged fore sight of a AT44 as well, could this work with your delrin muzzle weight???



            Still like the look of those classy Williams sights, would a brass pin foresight work with a Williams blade or peep sight, you reckon???

            Chewy.
            Attached Files

        • #9
          Just got this little beauty through from the boys in Czechoslovakia today

          http://www.altaros.cz/regulators/webley-raider-10/

          Sounds like they added it to their range due to a high demand from Australia

          Full report coming up soon
          "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

          Comment


          • #10
            Well that was an eventful weekend tinkering with the Raider - both managing to find time to chrono up young Maddos new acquisition straight out of the box (another Webley Raider in.177 Cal) and had an inordinate amount of excitement degassing my own Raider with the help of aforementioned the young blokes father

            First off I`m happy to report that if Maddos one is anything to go by - the latest shipment of Raiders appear to have been down-tuned slightly from the previously ridiculously fast output speed of 900Fps +++ to a far-more-sensible average-speed of 850Fps

            This of course means that the shot-count on these fine little carbines has increased to around 40 shots at full-power and the muzzle-report is far-more-acceptable – No-doubt they will shoot a whole lot straighter for it too - which IMHO is a far better job for all concerned.

            As a First PCP I think Maddo has made a fine choice and with both his dad and my help I`m sure we`ll soon get it shooting tacks in no time at all – Also it was good to do a shot-string on a brand-new and `as-yet` unfettled Raider to compare it with the results I`ve now got after refitting and correctly adjusting the aforementioned and frankly Very-Impressive after-market device

            Now on to my little drama of the day on Saturday - when I decided to rush in where-angels-fear-to-tread and boldly install my New Altaros WR-10 Pressure-Regulator into my already heavily-modified Raider 10

            So Question:- How does one de-pressurise a full PCP air-cylinder when the regulator has been wound down completely shut by some daft-old-sod (ie-me ) who did`nt bother to read the instructions before he fitted it - Consequently the exhaust-valve will no longer operate and the pressure-gauge is screwed in on the regulated side ..
            "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

            Comment


            • #11
              Give up

              I give you The Mother of all Spring Compressors

              "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

              Comment


              • #12
                Whoa.

                Might have to get a reg for my Raider when ordering for the AT44. What was the shot count improvement after the reg install Druid ??

                Chewy.

                Comment


                • Druid66
                  Druid66 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I know it sure was a pant-browner loosening off the last screw and then SLOWLY winding out the end plug I can tell you When the O-ring finally slipped past the first screw hole she went down with one hell of a hiss

                  So Seriously People DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME - We are both VERY EXPERIENCED TRADESMEN and did this using EXTREME CAUTION under CONTROLLED CONDITIONS whilst wearing FULL PROTECTIVE GEAR - And despite all that NO I would NOT EVER want to do it again.

                  Onwards - Chewy "Get the Reg!" - It`s superb My shot-count has gone up to 60 Metronomically-Consistent shots even before it goes off the reg (now set BTW at 105 BAR) then I get another 10 usable-shots after-that - These last 10 actually INCREASE slightly in velocity too before eventually falling off a cliff :P

                • Dingo745
                  Dingo745 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Originally posted by Chewdog" post=68140
                  Whoa.

                  Might have to get a reg for my Raider when ordering for the AT44. What was the shot count improvement after the reg install Druid ??

                  Chewy.
                  Please do Chewy, then I can see what your results are then I will decide if I'm going to spend some more $$ on my yet to arrive AT44-10 which I'm praying for my PTA to hurry up and get here.

              • #13
                Okay this is what you get in the Altaros kit - An adjustable regulator - An installation rod and a spare O`ring (not shown here)



                FIRST you need to de-pressurise the air-cylinder (to do this I usually just dry-fire mine until it`s empty) - Once you`ve made sure she`s empty whip out the three retaining screws and pull out the end-plug.

                This of course is a good opportunity to check the condition of you air-chamber for corrosion and to give it a nice clean out - I just used a small rag dampened with SILICON oil and a cleaning rod. then screw the rod on to the reg

                The reg itself just screws onto the installation rod and then pushes in the way it`s shown - when you come to do it it`s all pretty obvious



                Once the reg is pushed all the way home (ie to the exhaust-valve end of the chamber) you simply unscrew the installation-rod and remove it.
                My advice is to watch a few of the Altaros videos first to get the general jist of what`s-what before you start (`YES Druid` ) - http://www.altaros.cz/regulators/webley-raider-10/


                That`s about it really - Now you just bung it all back together

                Make sure any O`rings are clean and lubed with SILICON grease and Robert is your Mother`s Brother

                Results to follow
                "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

                Comment


                • #14
                  Sorry Nigel - All been angle-grinded away now - Picture-quality due to shaking with adrenaline at-the-time :S

                  Basically it had a 1/2" piece of solid-steel as a back-stop and a 4" long 1" nut & bolt both arc-welded to a metal-bench - A short length of 2" square-tube was used as a safety-shroud and 2 x burly-desperadoes held on to it both wearing sturdy work-gloves and full-face motor-cycle crash-helmets
                  "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

                  Comment


                  • Guest's Avatar
                    Guest commented
                    Editing a comment
                    "These last 10 actually INCREASE slightly in velocity too before eventually falling off a cliff"

                    This comment interested me intently.

                    I'v read somewhere else about a modification with compressed gases or air, and that is an expansion tank in the system. I don't know if it was home brew (which is remarkably similar to PCP's) or what, but it increased the usable volume of gas somehow. The idea was if you let gas out of a tank its still expanding when it finishes its job, but if you let it expand into a small tank first, then let it out into another tank, it expands again (one of Boyles Laws,GNFI here) and you get more use from the supply of gas.

                    Possibly a regulator letting gas out of the big tank, and another regulator letting gas into the small tank, two regs in tandem maybe

                    Im thinking that amounts to more shots per tank.

                    Chuck that about!

                • #15
                  I don`t know if it`s that complicated boys - I just think the reason would be because with the reg no-longer coming-into-play the hammer is now over-coming the total air-pressure in the remainder of the cylinder and exhausting it in larger amounts.

                  When you decrease the hammer strike-force on a basic PCP like the Raider when it`s set at NSD power-levels you get a velocity-curve which starts off at low speed and then slowly increases as you deplete the tank-pressure - Air-Arms 12FPE PCPs are buggers for it - Hence the need to learn-the-curve - The usual story is a `partial-lock` steady Fps climb to around 100BAR then they reach an equilibrium very-late in the shot-count - max-out for a-few-shots and then drop off their perch

                  The first Raider 10s we got here in `FAC` format were set at high-air-usage so the curve is more Flat-at-first and then it drops away steadily - My-own-one out-of-the-box was set up like this - The curve was pretty much Flat-Out-Screaming-Eagle straight from the start-pressure and then started-to-fall at about two-thirds through the shot-count - A quick change of air-port and a reduction in hammer-screw length soon tamed that nonsense - but this put me back to the steady rise-and-plunge curve of the Air-Arms`ish Big-Dipper - Hence the dire-need for the Altaros Reg

                  BTW If Maddos new Raider is anything to go by Webley might have come to a more sensible compromise now with a more mid-range-power perfectly formed Rainbow-Shape 30-shot-curve
                  "For it is the doom of men that they forget"

                  Comment

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