Licensed Concealed Carry - Australia

[Rudolph Magnum]

The first thing we need to do is accept some people including gun owners don't want the responsibility of carry a gun and potentially using it against another human.

Fair enough and sport is the only use for my rifles I would ever want as well.

Trouble is that notion misses the point, we all have the same right to life and freedom, not just some who are bigger and tougher, concealed carry solves the fact that the little guy is the little guy....doesn't matter what size he is obviously.

The second thing we need to do is realise we can have guns for sport and that's ok, like I said that's what my guns are for.....BUT..we are allowed to disagree and argue against things like the government saying self defence is not a legitimate reason to own a gun...WE MUST REALISE WE ARE ALLOWED TO DISAGREE and VOICE THAT OPINION.

The fact is the police, security, concealed carry are all the same animal just in a different suit with different levels of controls and inputs, the armed civilian though answers the question police and security guards can't...what happens when they aren't there.

[Shotgun!]

I agree with the whole idea, but this is something that has to be fought for and actually acquired in legislation. Bearing that in mind, there are a myriad of other choices that could be made of where we put our efforts into.

If our (few) pro-gun politicians have to put in 'X' amount of effort into new legislation (or repealing existing), then it's more likely we'll achieve some things, but not others, due to the would-be legislation's position on a scale of "do-able" right through to "political suicide". Concealed carry and open carry are just too far out there for many to consider worth pursuing.

The legislation that needs to be amended or created is one that allows people to defend themselves in the first place, not a new piece of firearms legislation. Once we have the lawful ability for us to defend ourselves or others (not commit an offence by doing so), then we are on the right track.

And I certainly agree we must be able to disagree and voice that opinion.
And I'm certainly comfortable with people carrying guns around on their person.
I believe the best way for many of these issues to be addressed is the continuing increase in the number of new licensed firearms owners. If we all brought one person into the sport over the next year, we'd have something like 1.4M shooters by this time next year, which would be close to 10% of the voting population. More like minded people means more success.

[several]

Shotgun is right, there are many steps to take before even mentioning CC.
I think the biggest step this country could take in the near future is adopting Castle Law, if we are not allowed to use a firearm to defend our home and family we will never be allowed to carry to defend ourselves in public. Even the introduction of personal defense items such as Tasers and pepper spray would be a huge jump forward for Australia.
Keep fighting the good fight and recruiting more people into our firearm related sports and lifestyle until we are truly a force to be reckoned with at the polls, then we can think of increasing our rights instead of fighting to cling to the few we have left.

[Maverick]

This would make a good bumper stick for the car.

" When seconds Count, Police are only Minutes away. "



Thanks...

[several]

This would make a good bumper stick for the car.

" When seconds Count, Police are only Minutes away. "



Thanks...

Nice, simple and makes the point.

I like it.

[Trapper]

I used to use it as a wallpaper on my laptop in a class taught by an anti gun copper. made sure he saw it every lesson

[Maverick]

I have a neighbour that works in the printing business, maybe he can make some bumper stickers up for me.

I'll have to ask him.

Thanks...

[Rudolph Magnum]

Need to change one thing the concept of being prepared to use potentially lethal force as being different to premeditated murder.

Which I think is the current perspective.

Of course that makes some convenient sense, the lawmakers can't grant civilians the right to hurt people as they see fit, but it only makes sense on the surface.

If you look at it intelligently drawing a comparison between pre-meditated murder and having the ability to overcome oppressive murderous force are two different things.

One is murder, the other is an attempt at refusing to be a victim.

[MrCarbine]

This is perhaps why we will never succeed.
The fundamental requirement to negotiation is to start at a level well above what you want to achieve and work down to what you are prepared to accept. If you start at what you are prepared to accept you lose. A prime example is the 1996 gun confiscation. Most of us thought it was “reasonable” to give up s/auto c/fire rifles but the opponents had other ideas. OPEN YOUR MINDS, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.

[Rudolph Magnum]

Tiny little bit of an insight into Concealed Carry attitudes..

Today at the post office the lady serving me needed ID, for interest and because my drivers license was in a more difficult section of my wallet I said is my concealable firearms license ok?

The lady stopped, though about it and said sure, I showed her, she then acted in a very different manner, she relaxed, smiled, and thanked me in a genuine fashion.

Her whole attitude went from uptight to relaxed.

I think the poor lady truly thought there was some chance that if the post office got held up, some valiant knight type with a licensed concealable firearms license might even be in the crowd and may intervene..

Now I realise this is reading into it a lot, also I am not silly, I can imagine that looking at it this way may be incorrect, BUT and it's a big BUT..This women works in a post office which has been held up by idiots with knives etc, I reckon when she saw the license she became grateful that there seemed to be civilians that were licensed for concealable firearms.

Of course throwing a plastic license at a villain is about as much protection as she has from me, but I don't think she quite knew that and I think she just wanted to read into it.

I think if the licensed had of said licensed for Concealed Carry for Defense of persons and property...I'd think there is an odds on bet she would have thought that was great.

[Maverick]

Rudolph Magnum I use my concealable firearms license all the time for I.D.

The girls in the local post office have asked me " how do I get one of those license's "

I reply with a laugh " a lot of paper work "



Thanks...

[Move]

Given that this is the new forum that has a different view of contentious topics, I hope you guys let me get my 2 cents in without a flame war.

There is no history or culture of concealed carry in this country. This is not going to change.

Open discussion of this topic might be fun and all but there is a real risk discussions like this can be construed to make us all look like rednecks.

I recommend we not go down this path and concentrate our efforts on defending the here and now - like keeping our few ranges and redefining firearm categories into something more sensible.

No good will come of harping on about hypothetical topics like concealed carrier which are never gonna happen.

I recommend we defend what we got and push hard for commonsense concessions to stupid existing laws.

[Aussie44]

There is no history or culture of concealed carry in this country.

Isn't there ???
You might want to recheck that.

Given that this is the new forum that has a different view of contentious topics, I hope you guys let me get my 2 cents in without a flame war.

There is no history or culture of concealed carry in this country.

And this matters, because?

This is not going to change.

No, it won't. Not with THAT attitude.

Open discussion of this topic might be fun and all but there is a real risk discussions like this can be construed to make us all look like rednecks.

What about those of Asian or other non-caucasian origin? Will they look like "rednecks" too?

I recommend we not go down this path and concentrate our efforts on defending the here and now - like keeping our few ranges and redefining firearm categories into something more sensible.

The best form of defence, is attack. Put it this way; while the Greens & Co are busy fighting our push for concealed carry, they'll be too busy to keep chipping away at the bolt-actions and H licences we currently have. See how it works?

No good will come of harping on about hypothetical topics like concealed carrier which are never gonna happen.

Yeah, good will come of it. See? ^^^

I recommend we defend what we got and push hard for commonsense concessions to stupid existing laws.

Your choice.

Well said Stan. I think like pushing for hunting in National Parks in NSW we risk taking too big a leap and leaving ourselves open on the flanks for the 'rest' of society to punish our grab at more rights with stripping some away. I'd settle for being able to have a semi-auto 22lr on a standard Cat A/B license

[adamjp]

Stan, I think you have nailed it.

I suggest those members who want to live where concealed carry is permitted need to move. Australia is highly unlikely to accept this proposition, now or any time into the future. To argue otherwise here is to waste electrons.

Those who are keen may also want to think hard about the real differences between the US and Australian legal systems. IF you were to carry in Australia, and IF you were to fire in defence of a person (you or someone else in mortal danger), and IF you missed the person presenting the danger and then hit an innocent bystander you will never spend Christmas at home with your family ever again. Please look at the Australian legal approach to wounding, manslaughter and murder as you must consider all aspects of the problem before you propose something like this.

As a final point I will make the observation that taking the life of another human being is a serious matter, something that most people actually baulk at when it comes down to it. To advocate concealed carry without recognition of the psychological impact it brings is quite shallow.

If this topic is to continue, please explore these matters before continuing to advocate for your views.

[Savage]

Stan, I think you have nailed it.

I suggest those members who want to live where concealed carry is permitted need to move. Australia is highly unlikely to accept this proposition, now or any time into the future. To argue otherwise here is to waste electrons.

Those who are keen may also want to think hard about the real differences between the US and Australian legal systems. IF you were to carry in Australia, and IF you were to fire in defence of a person (you or someone else in mortal danger), and IF you missed the person presenting the danger and then hit an innocent bystander you will never spend Christmas at home with your family ever again. Please look at the Australian legal approach to wounding, manslaughter and murder as you must consider all aspects of the problem before you propose something like this.

As a final point I will make the observation that taking the life of another human being is a serious matter, something that most people actually baulk at when it comes down to it. To advocate concealed carry without recognition of the psychological impact it brings is quite shallow.

If this topic is to continue, please explore these matters before continuing to advocate for your views.

IF someone had been on site and carrying then certain individuals that have perpetrated mass shootings in this country(and others) would not have been able to inflict as much damage and hasten the erosion of what priviledges we already have as gun owners. Imagine the positive press if a teacher in a school were to shoot a gun toting mental case before they did any harm?

To say we need to explore other issues first is merely putting one's head in the sand. I think if there are people willing to discuss possibilities then let them. I think it a very poignant fact that the government weren't able to protect the individual in every single case they have used to justify restricting LAFO's .

Stan, I think you have nailed it.

If this topic is to continue, please explore these matters before continuing to advocate for your views.

Done. (Decades ago)

Rock on.

[QuickShooter]

I didn't realise there was CC in Aus.. But the. I wondered about all those compacts for sale like G27's etc...

Who qualifies? Security body guard types?

I didn't realise there was CC in Aus.. But the. I wondered about all those compacts for sale like G27's etc...

Who qualifies? Security body guard types?

I knew a guy some years ago who had a CC permit for his job. He did covert cash pick-ups from businesses and wore casual clothes (T-shirt, shorts, runners), drove around in a small armoured civilian-looking van with the logo of a flower shop on the side and a couple of bouquets of flowers visible on the front passenger seat, and he carried a Walther PPK in a bum-bag around his waist (the bottom of the bum-bag had been cut into a flap and then secured by velcro, facilitating quick retrieval of the pistol if needed). Not only did he need a CC permit, but also a Prohibited Weapons permit too for the short-barreled semi-auto pistol.

We've got a greater chance of being allowed to use our guns to protect our families in our homes, which is Buckley's.
If I was in the position to, I wouldn't hesitate in doing so.

[Molon]

Some of you may be familiar with current efforts by the LDP (Liberal Democratic Party) to raise awareness and even some support for concealed carry in Aus, so to those of you who say that our culture etc denies any realm of possibility in which concealed carry would exist, you may be speaking too soon. I don't think the LDP will win our cause by any means but they are certainly at least raising the issue in the public forum.

[adamjp]

Molon I am more concerned about the damage they will do in raising the topic.

I only have to look at the situation with NSW Hunting to see how political parties can be stimulated into making decisions that undermine everything people have worked for.

QuckShooter - Ordinary security officers (bodyguards) do not have Concealed Carry permission, if the situation is that bad police will usually be assigned. Only a very select few non-government types have those privileges and they know if they shoot some innocent they will be hung out to dry by everyone. BG work is less about offensive interaction and more about preventative measures including diversion, screening and managing interactions.

At least a Police Officer can usually rely upon the Police Union if they shoot someone, a private citizen will be very very lonely.

Adamjp - you mean like gold squad? I hear they have SMG's....

It is obviously for protection, but is it for protecting property (gold/diamonds) or people? (Celebraties)... Or personal protection? (James packer)

[Rudolph Magnum]

I too know a guy who has CC plains clothes cash transport, the bloke he works with also CC, they work in teams of two, works much better cos nothing on display.

Personal protection of life does not land you in jail for life if your life is under imminent threat.

You are allowed to spend Xmas and every day with your family, your not a criminal why would you go to jail?

Because you had a gun? And used it? Well that part of the law needs changing, the good guys need CC, fact.

Calling people like David Lejonhelm rednecks is silly, CC is a damn good idea, it keeps criminals guessing and it can also stop them in their tracks.


Have a think about being taken hostage cos you went shopping, don't need a gun under your shirt now do you, noooo...
What about being marched into the bush so you be finished off...don't shoot that guy now, you may have trouble living with yourself...

Seriously give the good guys guns, common sense.


P.S the bad guys do carry guns in public.....loaded....sshhhh...don't wanna scare anyone now.

As a moderator Adamjp seems to think his personal view is to be espoused or everyone else quietened....Well Adamjp I have news for you, there are many police and high up intelligent people who think CC is a very good idea because the police would have an extension to their own group right there, and everyone knows they need that, the idea the police should be the almighty controllers and saviours and the rest of us should just sit tight till they arrive doesn't actually even work for a lot of coppers, when you have an honest conversation with some of them that is.

As I said in my OP some people don't like the idea of a gun being used for self defence and would rather be killed than have to try and shoot someone....fair enough.

I support that way of thinking, my gun dealer dad drilled it into my head so much I have no choice I understand it.

I also understand we live in a free country, times are changing, and talking honestly about a situation is a good thing.

It actually seems that your personal agenda seems to be a reason you are a moderator, so you can tell everyone else what they are allowed to say about guns and what their not allowed to say.

[fishphillott]

what drugs are you on mate
when was the last time that happened in Australia to an ordinary person walking down the street or the shopping center
if it happens too you regularly then you need a new lifestyle or just a life
how many times do morons like you have to be told self defense is not a genuine reason for owning a firearm in Australia never has been never will be
Fish

I too know a guy who has CC plains clothes cash transport, the bloke he works with also CC, they work in teams of two, works much better cos nothing on display.

Personal protection of life does not land you in jail for life if your life is under imminent threat.

You are allowed to spend Xmas and every day with your family, your not a criminal why would you go to jail?

Because you had a gun? And used it? Well that part of the law needs changing, the good guys need CC, fact.

Calling people like David Lejonhelm rednecks is silly, CC is a damn good idea, it keeps criminals guessing and it can also stop them in their tracks.


Have a think about being taken hostage cos you went shopping, don't need a gun under your shirt now do you, noooo...
What about being marched into the bush so you be finished off...don't shoot that guy now, you may have trouble living with yourself...

Seriously give the good guys guns, common sense.


P.S the bad guys do carry guns in public.....loaded....sshhhh...don't wanna scare anyone now.

[adamjp]

As a moderator Adamjp seems to think his personal view is to be espoused or everyone else quietened....Well Adamjp I have news for you, there are many police and high up intelligent people who think CC is a very good idea because the police would have an extension to their own group right there, and everyone knows they need that, the idea the police should be the almighty controllers and saviours and the rest of us should just sit tight till they arrive doesn't actually even work for a lot of coppers, when you have an honest conversation with some of them that is.

For the record, I did not lock this thread. If I was doing what you are claiming, I would have locked the thread some time back.

However I will point out that I was not imposing my views at the exclusion of yours, merely trying to moderate the discussion with some other things that people should think about in this subject area.

I and the other moderators will inject ourselves into conversations as both forum members and as moderators. Disagreeing with our thoughts as members is permitted, disagreeing with the moderating decisions is not. Slanging off at a moderator as you have done will not be tolerated. Rudolph Magnum, you have now been warned, there are no more chances.

The thread is now unlocked, but can be permanently locked if anyone starts down a similar path.

All - calling each other names is not on, you will behave or you will be out.

[adamjp]

Let's look at the scenario of shopping at your local Westfield/Stocklands. Do you know that in the USA, Westfield does not permit the public to bring firearms into the centre? If caught with one you will be escorted out. Caught again and they will take civil action and ban you from the centres. These are legal measures that they may take as the occupier of the land - all people who exercise property rights over a space may make the same exclusions. Much like the 'Entry into this store authorises staff to search you bags if requested.' signs common here in Australia.

Do you know that all Federal buildings in the USA prohibit any but the authorised to bring a weapon into the building? Many states do the same thing and they enforce it with an iron rod.

Do you know that in NSW it is illegal to take so much as a pocket knife onto the school grounds? I can't speak to the rules in other states, but I won't be surprised if they are the same.

The reality is that carry (concealed or not) is not as simple as some would believe.

[Move]

For the record, I did not refer to anyone in the forum as a redneck. It is pretty clear that what I said was that LAFOs could be construed as rednecks for pursuing laughable agendas like concealed carry.

Also to clear up another confusion in this thread, in Qld a handgun licence is referred to as a "concealable firearms licence". This licence does not infer holders have any right to carry firearms in a concealed manner. It is just poor wording for an ordinary H category target shooting licence.

Also, in most (maybe all) states, licensed bodyguards are specifically precluded from applying for firearms permits - open carry or concealed. Firearms permits are issued exclusively to licenced guards engaged in the protection of cash or other valuable goods. These laws and regulations are crystal clear -no firearms are permitted for the protection of people except by sworn police personnel or, rarely, military personnel.

So called "commissioner's permits" probably do exist in some states for a handful of people, but any such provisions are completely irrelevant to practically every LAFO in this country.

My key point is that issues like this are nothing but a distraction from the real game in town - protecting what we have and clawing back at least some of what we lost. Pursuing things we never had might actually be worse than being just a waste of time.

[Greenwich-biker]

My key point is that issues like this are nothing but a distraction from the real game in town - protecting what we have and clawing back at least some of what we lost. Pursuing things we never had might actually be worse than being just a waste of time.

Just to be slightly argumentative, what about using CC as a sacrificial gambit - ie, ask for more in order to settle for less?

[Savage]

Pursuing things we never had might actually be worse than being just a waste of time.

Many people were allowed concealed carry right through the seventies, it was only an official extension of what had already been going on forever. Don't confuse what we have been allowed since the 1980's with what went before.