Storage of loaded magazines, VIC

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  • Storage of loaded magazines, VIC

    So I had seen this discussed many times over on the other Forum with the consensus being that it is a huge no-no.

    I never paid too much attention to it as I thought I would never really need to do it.

    However, ramping up my competing, at times I could see value in loading up mags prior to a big event (I have 15 for some of my guns) to save time on range before the comp, but based on previous forum discussions, it was understood it legally cannot be done. Same deal with speed loaders for a revolver.

    So over the last few days I have completely read the Vic Firearms Act and Firearms Regulations. Nowhere in either document, does it state you cannot store your ammo loaded in magazines or speed loaders. Only that it must be stored in a separate locked container to the firearms. It does not even state that you cannot transport your ammo in magazines or speed loaders, only that you must take reasonable care to ensure it is secure, and not lost or stolen.

    So based on that, I can find no legislation or regulation that prevents me from pre loading mags and or speed loaders prior to an event, and storing them in my separate locked container. In Victoria at least - I expect other states may be more specific about this.

    Anyone else have any experience in this area?

    Cheers...

  • #2
    130 Offence to carry or use a firearm in certain places
    (1) A person must not carry a loaded firearm or use a firearm in a town or populous place or on any thoroughfare or place open to or used by the public for passage with vehicles.
    Penalty: 60 penalty units or 12 months imprisonment.

    I cant find it atm but the other relevant section i believe is in the crimes act not the firearms act where by a magazine is for the purpose of the law considered a firearm if its loaded. Call LRD or your local firearms officer and they will tell you as much.

    Reason being that many grubs used to walk around with a pistol in one pocket and a loaded mag in the other, so the intention of the law was to be able to charge these people with having a loaded firearm because in a matter of seconds it would be!

    Is it annoying, yep! are you likely to get in some deep shit if you are caught most likely depends on your attitude and the officer is it worth the risk not really.

    Comment


    • MrCarbine
      MrCarbine commented
      Editing a comment
      If the magazine is locked away seperate to the firearm no problem (Vic only if you over the border good luck).

  • #3
    That's what I thought...if the magazine has cartridges in it even when separate from the firearm it is considered loaded. So you can't walk along a bush track', a public thoroughfare, with a full magazine in your pocket and the rifle or whatever over your shoulder.
    I'm in love with Jennifer Hawkins and Alessandra Ambrosio

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    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest commented
      Editing a comment
      Originally posted by Sambar Country" post=9116
      That's what I thought...if the magazine has cartridges in it even when separate from the firearm it is considered loaded. So you can't walk along a bush track', a public thoroughfare, with a full magazine in your pocket and the rifle or whatever over your shoulder.
      This is my understanding. At law in Vic, a loaded magazine is defined as a loaded rifle.

  • #4
    Firearms Act 1996 (as currently amended): No mention of loaded magazines.
    Firearms Regulations (as currently amended):: No mention of loaded magazines.
    Crimes Act 1958 (as currently amended): No mention of 'loaded' or 'magazines'.

    Ammunition possession is covered by the Firearms Act but the whole thing about loaded magazines seems to have no backing anywhere in the above three Acts (and that included the sections on descriptions).

    A magazine (whether unloaded or loaded) in and of itself is obviously not a firearm otherwise they'd all need to be serial numbered and separately registered - but if loaded, the ammunition inside it means it has to be locked away where necessary.

    If anyone can provide a direct quote from a relevant Victorian Act or Regulation which restricts the carriage of loaded magazines, by all means, please do so.
    Member of the Aunty Jack Firearm Appreciation Society - "Now be a good little Aussie and learn how to shoot or I'll rip your bloody arms off......and I will too!"

    "Have you tried unloading it then reloading it?" - Roy Trenneman on fixing firearm problems

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    • #5
      I personally saw a court case in Victoria where a guy was pulled over with a Brno Model 2 in the boot in a gun bag. He had the loaded mag in his glove box, and was charged with carrying a loaded firearm in a populace area.
      He appealed the decision to the then Firearm Appeals Tribunal and they didn't over turn it, but did give him his license back. Bloody disgraceful in my opinion. This was back in 2004.

      Take that for what it's worth.

      I know what the law says, but you're assuming the level of knowledge of firearms that most police and judges simply don't have.

      Comment


      • Dreadnought1
        Dreadnought1 commented
        Editing a comment
        Originally posted by Tornado-Technologies" post=9162
        I personally saw a court case in Victoria where a guy was pulled over with a Brno Model 2 in the boot in a gun bag. He had the loaded mag in his glove box, and was charged with carrying a loaded firearm in a populace area.
        He appealed the decision to the then Firearm Appeals Tribunal and they didn't over turn it, but did give him his license back.
        Now reading the specifics of the case as you provided them, I think it's ridiculous the bloke was charged in the first place...

        ....but if the verdict in this case wasn't overturned, a person convicted of an offence against the Firearms Act was permitted to retain their licence. The media would have had a field day...

      • Guest's Avatar
        Guest commented
        Editing a comment
        Originally posted by Tornado-Technologies" post=9162
        I personally saw a court case in Victoria where a guy was pulled over with a Brno Model 2 in the boot in a gun bag. He had the loaded mag in his glove box, and was charged with carrying a loaded firearm in a populace area.
        He appealed the decision to the then Firearm Appeals Tribunal and they didn't over turn it, but did give him his license back. Bloody disgraceful in my opinion. This was back in 2004.

        Take that for what it's worth.

        I know what the law says, but you're assuming the level of knowledge of firearms that most police and judges simply don't have.
        The loaded firearm part is ridicules, However I'm sure there is clear outlines stating that ammo can't be stored in the center console or the glovebox. Regardless of being in a magazine. I'm pretty sure wording to the likes of it not being easily accessible by the occupants of the vehicle.

    • #6
      Great discussion guys, thanks. Very interesting to see each others thoughts and understanding

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      • #7
        Originally posted by ex_reven" post=9169
        What have you guys found in the VIC legislation surrounding what is defined as a loaded firearm?
        As mentioned above, there's nothing at all in Victorian legislation.
        Our definitions include 'Firearm' but do not include one for 'Loaded Firearm' like yours does.
        Member of the Aunty Jack Firearm Appreciation Society - "Now be a good little Aussie and learn how to shoot or I'll rip your bloody arms off......and I will too!"

        "Have you tried unloading it then reloading it?" - Roy Trenneman on fixing firearm problems

        Comment


        • #8
          Why would anyone risk their Firearms License by leaving a loaded magazine at home or vehicles ???

          If your not sure, err on the side of caution and common sense, you don't do it.

          The Firearms License process is so long and tedious that it's not worth the risk.

          Thanks.


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          Comment


          • Dreadnought1
            Dreadnought1 commented
            Editing a comment
            Originally posted by Maverick" post=9206
            Why would anyone risk their Firearms License by leaving a loaded magazine at home or vehicles ???

            If your not sure, err on the side of caution and common sense, you don't do it.

            The Firearms License process is so long and tedious that it's not worth the risk.

            Thanks.


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            Discretion is the best policy and I certainly don't have a need to carry around loaded magazines.
            Loading them at the range or in the field works for me...

            However a discussion of the matter with reference to the relevant documents is worthwhile as it helps get beyond the Derek & Clive type discussions based on "I saw/heard/read-on-the-internet this story about this bloke the other day...".

            You'd have to agree that there have been far too many of those ones about aspects of our pastime in the past...

          • MrCarbine
            MrCarbine commented
            Editing a comment
            Originally posted by Maverick" post=9206
            Why would anyone risk their Firearms License by leaving a loaded magazine at home or vehicles ???

            If your not sure, err on the side of caution and common sense, you don't do it.

            The Firearms License process is so long and tedious that it's not worth the risk.

            Thanks.[/color]
            Your statement seems at odds with your signature.

        • #9
          Originally posted by ex_reven" post=9233
          Originally posted by Maverick" post=9206
          Why would anyone risk their Firearms License by leaving a loaded magazine at home or vehicles ???

          If your not sure, err on the side of caution and common sense, you don't do it.

          The Firearms License process is so long and tedious that it's not worth the risk.
          *
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          If it is proven to be legal, I don't see the issue.
          I leave stripper clips and speed loaders loaded, and that is nowhere near what would be considered a grey area.

          Its like saying in NSW that its not law to keep bolts out of firearms in the safe, but that we should do so out of 'good practice.'
          There's nothing wrong with going beyond the security required of us by law, but if someone is storing/transporting within what is laid out as legal who are we to judge?
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          Yes, I see your point.

          Remember the Police are not our friends and their interpretation of Law along with a Judge's Decision is Final and Absolute.

          As I stated before why would anyone risk their License.

          Thanks...


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          Comment


          • #10
            This question (where should loaded mags be stored) has been asked of the NSW Firearms Registry and their answer is - A magazine is defined in the act as a firearm part, so it should be stored with the firearm, However, if the magazine contains any ammunition it must be stored in a separate locked container, as all ammo is required to be.
            So, empty mags can be in the same case with the gun (as they usually are when you buy a new gun), or you can leave one (or more) rounds in each mag and place them in your locked ammo box. Technically, empty mags in your ammo box might be a problem.

            Regards
            Paul D

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            • #11
              Aside from the legal considerations if you leave your magazines loaded for too long you risk ruining the springs and making the magazine inoperable.
              "Love the bush for its own sake and you will never have an unsuccessful hunt".

              Comment


              • #12
                Originally posted by ex_reven" post=9315
                Originally posted by Shotgunner" post=9288
                Aside from the legal considerations if you leave your magazines loaded for too long you risk ruining the springs and making the magazine inoperable.
                This is a common point, but the consensus seems to be that compressing a spring does nothing in comparison to loading and unloading your magazines when it comes to wearing them out, so long as that springs compression is within the range it was designed to operate within.

                An example of this would be rifles with an internal magazine, with the spring based on the floorplate.
                In their default state, unloaded, the spring is still compressed as the follower butts up to the bottom of the feed ramp.
                Remove the floorplate and the spring expands and is much longer than it otherwise would be when compressed within the firearm.
                Within normal operating range, the spring has lasted decades.

                I dont think keeping them loaded contributes that much to the need for an early replacement, otherwise our police forces would be replacing them regularly I'd say.
                Just what I was taught in the Army but hey, they are your magazines. At $100 - $150 for a Tikka magazine I wouldn't be doing it though!
                "Love the bush for its own sake and you will never have an unsuccessful hunt".

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                • #13
                  I think shotgunner is correct.

                  In the old forum ppl talking about how to insert last cartridge to zastava's 10rnd magazine and the easy way is to load it with 9 rnd over night.
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                  To Enslaves a Nation , Disarm The Citizens !

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                  • #14
                    [quote="ex_reven" post=9281]
                    Originally posted by PWD" post=9271
                    Good post, so basically so long as your ammo storage complies with Cat H storage requirements you would have no issues.
                    Actually you could have issues, under the Dangerous Goods Act (in your state). Explosive cannot be stored in rigid containers that could cause shrapnel during an explosion. See how complicated it gets. What's why we should not define, or interpret law on such threads.
                    If you're going through hell, keep going."
                    Winston Churchill

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                    • #15
                      Hi guys,
                      When I did my safety course (in qld) I was informed that ammunition must be stored in its factory packaging. The trainer then went onto say this was kind of stupid when factory packaging can be a bucket.

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                      • fishphillott
                        fishphillott commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Not all ammo comes from a factory
                        So that claim is sort of redundant
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